This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the group:

we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing with
a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation of
the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's.

I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you manually
create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30 years
ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate
integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it easy
with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin?


--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

In article >,
"Jim Carter" > wrote:

> This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the group:
>
> we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing with
> a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation of
> the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's.
>
> I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you manually
> create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30 years
> ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate
> integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it easy
> with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin?

My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their boxes
to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP
contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes.

On Sun, 13 May 2007 14:09:15 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:

>In article >,
> "Jim Carter" > wrote:
>
>> This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the group:
>>
>> we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing with
>> a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation of
>> the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's.
>>
>> I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you manually
>> create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30 years
>> ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate
>> integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it easy
>> with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin?
>
>My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their boxes
>to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP
>contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes.

The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.

I thought I read that the 1000 uses the 400/500 series logic to drive it. If
that's so, then I wonder why the macro to generate the flight plan isn't
retrofitted to the earlier units.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 13 May 2007 14:09:15 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> "Jim Carter" > wrote:
>>
>>> This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the
>>> group:
>>>
>>> we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing
>>> with
>>> a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation
>>> of
>>> the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's.
>>>
>>> I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you
>>> manually
>>> create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30
>>> years
>>> ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate
>>> integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it
>>> easy
>>> with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin?
>>
>>My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their
>>boxes
>>to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP
>>contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes.
>
> The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.

On May 13, 1:42 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 May 2007 14:09:15 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:
> >In article >,
> > "Jim Carter" > wrote:
>
> >> This question particularly applies to the CAP mission pilots in the group:
>
> >> we have been flying GX50 and 60s in our CAP birds, but I'm playing with
> >> a GNS430 in a private aircraft. There doesn't seem to be a correlation of
> >> the SAR functions in Garmin's unit like Apollo's.
>
> >> I'd like to know how others handle the missing functions. Do you manually
> >> create a flight plan with waypoints at the end of each grid leg? 30 years
> >> ago we only had to use pencil and charts, but now we have to demonstrate
> >> integration of the GPS into our search patterns. The Apollo makes it easy
> >> with the SAR map page; what am I missing on the Garmin?
>
> >My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their boxes
> >to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP
> >contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes.
>
> The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Interesting because our G1000 CAP 182 does not. We program in the 4
points of the grid and then create a flight plan around it. In fact
that is one of the required exercies for observers to get signed off
in the squadron. The observer basically owns the right screen and the
pilot owns the left ( you can use the inset to see anything you would
have seen on the right screen).

On 14 May 2007 15:25:19 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>On May 13, 1:42 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:

>> The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Interesting because our G1000 CAP 182 does not. We program in the 4
>points of the grid and then create a flight plan around it. In fact
>that is one of the required exercies for observers to get signed off
>in the squadron. The observer basically owns the right screen and the
>pilot owns the left ( you can use the inset to see anything you would
>have seen on the right screen).
>

When you dial the range down sufficiently does your system not draw
grids? Or are we talking about two different things?

On May 14, 3:39 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:
> On 14 May 2007 15:25:19 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
> wrote:
>
> >On May 13, 1:42 pm, Peter Clark
> > wrote:
> >> The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >Interesting because our G1000 CAP 182 does not. We program in the 4
> >points of the grid and then create a flight plan around it. In fact
> >that is one of the required exercies for observers to get signed off
> >in the squadron. The observer basically owns the right screen and the
> >pilot owns the left ( you can use the inset to see anything you would
> >have seen on the right screen).
>
> When you dial the range down sufficiently does your system not draw
> grids? Or are we talking about two different things?

It shows the same section grid lines that any G1000 does but it does
not allow you to flight plan to a CAP named grid like our GX60 (with
CAP database) did.

-Robert

The GX 50/60 series puts the grid lines on the quadrangle with WPTs at each
turnpoint. Does the G1000 do the same?

But back to any of the non-GX 50/60 class; does the aircrew just calculate
and program in the WPTs by hand, or do they use the old pencil and chart
method to layout the grid track?

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> On 14 May 2007 15:25:19 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
> wrote:
>
>>On May 13, 1:42 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:
>
>>> The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>Interesting because our G1000 CAP 182 does not. We program in the 4
>>points of the grid and then create a flight plan around it. In fact
>>that is one of the required exercies for observers to get signed off
>>in the squadron. The observer basically owns the right screen and the
>>pilot owns the left ( you can use the inset to see anything you would
>>have seen on the right screen).
>>
>
> When you dial the range down sufficiently does your system not draw
> grids? Or are we talking about two different things?

On May 15, 5:47 am, "Jim Carter" > wrote:
> The GX 50/60 series puts the grid lines on the quadrangle with WPTs at each
> turnpoint. Does the G1000 do the same?
>
> But back to any of the non-GX 50/60 class; does the aircrew just calculate
> and program in the WPTs by hand, or do they use the old pencil and chart
> method to layout the grid track?

> - Show quoted text -


In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while
taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc.
So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this
by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long. If he
makes a mistake, its obvious on the screen. If he's lucky someone else
has already searched that grid and the WPT is already there! ;). He
then creates a flight plan that goes direct to one of the points and
then goes through each point. That flight plan is stored in the FPL
database for the pilot to pull up. We don't do much hand flying in the
G1000 planes, the autopilots are pretty awesome.

-Robert

So do you fly anything except G1000s? If so, then how do you program in the
grid tracks? Do you have a formula for calculating the grid-edge waypoints?

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On May 15, 5:47 am, "Jim Carter" > wrote:
>> The GX 50/60 series puts the grid lines on the quadrangle with WPTs at
>> each
>> turnpoint. Does the G1000 do the same?
>>
>> But back to any of the non-GX 50/60 class; does the aircrew just
>> calculate
>> and program in the WPTs by hand, or do they use the old pencil and chart
>> method to layout the grid track?
>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
> In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while
> taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc.
> So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this
> by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long. If he
> makes a mistake, its obvious on the screen. If he's lucky someone else
> has already searched that grid and the WPT is already there! ;). He
> then creates a flight plan that goes direct to one of the points and
> then goes through each point. That flight plan is stored in the FPL
> database for the pilot to pull up. We don't do much hand flying in the
> G1000 planes, the autopilots are pretty awesome.
>
> -Robert
>
>

On May 15, 12:22 pm, "Jim Carter" > wrote:
> So do you fly anything except G1000s? If so, then how do you program in the
> grid tracks? Do you have a formula for calculating the grid-edge waypoints?

For CAP I only fly the G1000 (it's our squadron's only aircraft).
However, any GPS should allow you to create WPTs by lat long (which is
what we do).

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while
> taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc.
> So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this
> by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long.

Not by using the cursor to point and click?

> If he
> makes a mistake, its obvious on the screen.

Maybe...maybe not.

On May 15, 3:56 pm, "Matt Barrow" >
wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while
> > taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc.
> > So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this
> > by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long.
>
> Not by using the cursor to point and click?

No. Its very difficult to get your bearings on a moving map for
distant locations. A grid really doesn't have a good point of
reference other than lat/long. I suppose if the grid was over
something easily identifiable(like the Golden Gate), you could do it
but otherwise its easier to just type in the lat/long off your gridded
sectional chart.

-Robert

The vast majority of CAP's 500+ aircraft fleet are not G1000 but the old round guage panels we all know and love, To the best of my knowledge all the fleet is equipted with GPSs. Since each was equipted with the latest and greatest panel when it was built, what's in each plane varies widely. What's taught at CAP's National Emergency Services Academy Mission Aircrew School is to plan your search on paper. The observer finds the lat/long of the entry and exit points. Since most search legs are on cardinal directions (N-S, E-W) these points define the search area, The pilot flys the airplane to a point several miles outside the search area on the extended first leg. Holding either the lat or long steady, the first leg is flown. Once out of the search area on the first leg the pilot makes approximately a standard rate 180 degree turn. That positions the plan one mile to the side and close to the lat or long of the next leg. With a little fine adjustment to the lat or long the search areaa is entered and the next leg flown, This process is repeated until the search area is covered. All that is needed is some way to see your current position's lat/long. And all the GPSs can display this. Very straight forward process.

Yes Chuck, I've been a rated mission pilot for years, but I'm not current.
In our Wing, mission checkouts now include demonstration of integration of
modern GPS technology into the search patterns. For example, I must
demonstrate how to set the GX50/60 series that are in most CAP aircraft for
Creeping Line, Parallel Track, and Expanding Square searches from an Initial
Point. I must also demonstrate using the GPS to compute and display the
standard grid search that you described.
Unless the route of flight of the target aircraft is one of four compass
headings (actually true headings) - North, South, East, or West - the search
pattern used could easily not be aligned with latitudes and longitudes.
Additionally, rather than fly several miles outside the pattern entry point,
many mission pilots equate that fix similarly as we do a holding fix. We
approach it via the most direct and expeditious route and then execute the
proper "holding pattern entry" to align us with the inbound heading -
essentially a 1/2 turn hold prior to entry into the grid. Most usually this
contributes to more time in the search box and less in transit.

My whole point in starting this thread was to determine if these SAR
capabilities are peculiar to the Apollo GX50/60 series or should I have been
able to find them in the Garmin 400/500 series. Apparently this feature is
unique to Apollo,

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Chuck Gerlach" > wrote in message
...
The vast majority of CAP's 500+ aircraft fleet are not G1000 but the old
round guage panels we all know and love, To the best of my knowledge all
the fleet is equipted with GPSs. Since each was equipted with the latest
and greatest panel when it was built, what's in each plane varies widely.
What's taught at CAP's National Emergency Services Academy Mission Aircrew
School is to plan your search on paper. The observer finds the lat/long of
the entry and exit points. Since most search legs are on cardinal
directions (N-S, E-W) these points define the search area, The pilot flys
the airplane to a point several miles outside the search area on the
extended first leg. Holding either the lat or long steady, the first leg is
flown. Once out of the search area on the first leg the pilot makes
approximately a standard rate 180 degree turn. That positions the plan one
mile to the side and close to the lat or long of the next leg. With a
little fine adjustment to the lat or long the search areaa is entered and
the next leg flown, This process is repeated until the search area is
covered. All that is needed is some way to see your current position's
lat/long. And all the GPSs can display this. Very straight forward
process.

Peter Clark > wrote:

> >My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their boxes
> >to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP
> >contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes.

> The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.

Um... ours does not have it yet: N652CP, T182T/Nav III, Colorado Wing.

Did you get this with a software upgrade, or is there some
"bump and twist" of the knobs that I have not read about?

Please share how to turn on G1000 182 has search grids.

Thank you!

Best regards,

LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, Colorado Wing Checkpilot (airplanes and gliders),
Assistant Glider Program Manager, Colorado Wing, CAP

--
LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, CO-Wing, Thompson Valley CS., Ft Collins, CO
CELL/VM: 970 231-6325
EMAIL: jer'at'frii.com WEB: http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 247 Young Eagles!

On Thu, 17 May 2007 16:03:43 -0000, wrote:

>Peter Clark > wrote:
>
>> >My understanding is that Apollo put specific functionality into their boxes
>> >to allow flying SAR grids specifically because they were chasing a big CAP
>> >contract. So, it's not surprising it's not in the Garmin boxes.
>
>> The CAP version of the G1000 182 has search grids.
>
>Um... ours does not have it yet: N652CP, T182T/Nav III, Colorado Wing.
>
>Did you get this with a software upgrade, or is there some
>"bump and twist" of the knobs that I have not read about?
>
>Please share how to turn on G1000 182 has search grids.
>
>Thank you!
>
>Best regards,
>
>LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, Colorado Wing Checkpilot (airplanes and gliders),
> Assistant Glider Program Manager, Colorado Wing, CAP

The messages here seem to indicate what I saw was something different.
All I know is that when I zoomed down a G1000 CAP aircraft's MFD to a
low-ish (5nm? 10nm? I forget) value, it overlayed a
light-white-dashed line grid which I cannot replicate on any of the
non-CAP aircraft I've worked on, which I was told had something to do
with search grids. Since I'm not in a CAP and the MFD's function
check was fine, that's as far as I ever got with it.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On May 15, 3:56 pm, "Matt Barrow" >
> wrote:
>> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in
>> ooglegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while
>> > taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc.
>> > So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this
>> > by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long.
>>
>> Not by using the cursor to point and click?
>
> No. Its very difficult to get your bearings on a moving map for
> distant locations.

I've only had the G1000 for three months, butI haven't found it THAT
difficult.

> A grid really doesn't have a good point of
> reference other than lat/long. I suppose if the grid was over
> something easily identifiable(like the Golden Gate), you could do it
> but otherwise its easier to just type in the lat/long off your gridded
> sectional chart.

Other than Terminal areas, I haven't used sectionals in YEARS.

AOAN, I use a named intersection, or just an approximae spot, say five miles
from where I want to enter the traffic area.

On May 18, 10:53 am, "Matt Barrow" >
wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 15, 3:56 pm, "Matt Barrow" >
> > wrote:
> >> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in
> >> ooglegroups.com...
>
> >> > In the G1000 the observer takes command of the right screen while
> >> > taxiing out and programs in a way point named <Grid#><A/B/C/D>, etc.
> >> > So he creates a WPT called 123A, 123B, 123C, 123D, etc. He does this
> >> > by looking at his gridded sectional and figuring the lat/long.
>
> >> Not by using the cursor to point and click?
>
> > No. Its very difficult to get your bearings on a moving map for
> > distant locations.
>
> I've only had the G1000 for three months, butI haven't found it THAT
> difficult.
>
> > A grid really doesn't have a good point of
> > reference other than lat/long. I suppose if the grid was over
> > something easily identifiable(like the Golden Gate), you could do it
> > but otherwise its easier to just type in the lat/long off your gridded
> > sectional chart.
>
> Other than Terminal areas, I haven't used sectionals in YEARS.
>
> AOAN, I use a named intersection, or just an approximae spot, say five miles
> from where I want to enter the traffic area.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Even if you had all the grids in the GPS it wouldn't help ground teams
(unless they had a 430 installed in the van) that you are trying to
direct into the search area.

-Robert

Since the ground teams use the same grid numbering and designation as
the aircrews, I'm not sure I understand the basis of your point. Although
their maps may be more highly detailed and to a much smaller scale, we
typically overlay the standard US grid numbering scheme on them so there is
coordination before they ever get into the field. Why would not having the
same information on both maps not be helpful?

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Even if you had all the grids in the GPS it wouldn't help ground teams
> (unless they had a 430 installed in the van) that you are trying to
> direct into the search area.
>
> -Robert
>

On 5/14/2007 10:10 PM, Robert M. Gary wrote the following:
>
> It shows the same section grid lines that any G1000 does but it does
> not allow you to flight plan to a CAP named grid like our GX60 (with
> CAP database) did.
>

I just flew a SAREX today in a G1000/C182 and could not figure out how to
display lat/long lines. Can you give me some clues?